President Jagan was interviewed in his office in Georgetown a month before he died by Fred Rosen and Mario Murillo of NACLA via radio hook-up from the studios of WBAI in New York. This interview originally appeared in NACLA Report on the Americas, Vol. 31:1. Copyright 1997 by the North American Congress on Latin America,
President Jagan
475 Riverside Drive, Suite 454, New York, NY, 10115 USA.Dr. Jagan, you've been referred to in the U.S. press as an unabashed Stalinist and a Moscow-inspired purist, and on the other hand you've been referred to as a former Marxist who has seen the light and is now a converted practitioner of free-market economics. How would you describe your political and economic evolution over the past 30 years?
Well, I have always associated myself with the ideology of the working class, and I have led a very strong working-class party for the past 47 years. Different people see and call working-class ideology by different names. But what was important were the concrete historical conditions in Guyana and the creation of a programmatic platform that caters to the needs of the working class. In many ways we were different from the mold in which many people placed us, especially the far right during the period of intense political and ideological struggles. For me, Marxism neither was nor is dogma, but a scientific guide to action. It gave me strong ethical beliefs in social justice, particularly in helping the poor, the underprivileged and the exploited.
I grew up on a sugar plantation. Sugar was king. As a matter of fact, it was the gunning down of sugar workers in 1948 which propelled me into the anti-fascist struggle for national and social liberation, and in particular the anti-colonial struggle for an end to foreign domination. We struggled in British Guiana for the right to vote, and later to raise living standards and to try to transform the colonial economy, in which we were just producers of raw materials, sending things abroad and getting very little in return. Today I would say that it's fashionable to talk about the collapse of Marxism and socialism, yet it is not Marxism that has collapsed, but some of its practitioners. There is a great distinction between theory and principles on one hand, and practice on the other. Our practice developed differently in a concrete and different historical context than say in Russia, Cuba or China.
As we know, many mistakes were made due to the wholesale adoption in developing countries of the programmatic position taken in Britain by the British Labor Party. Many developing countries saw their advance to socialism in the rulebook of the British Labor Party, "the public ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange:" That was the goal for a developed economy. But because many colonial peoples, especially in the British Empire, looked at the British experience and had links to the social democratic Labor Party in England, our practice was more or less taken from theirs. In this regard, I think we made mistakes. We were not creative enough in adopting programs which were in keeping with our own concrete condition. Our concept of Guyana Socialism was premised on plural, peaceful, multi-party states with mixed forms of ownership. This was misunderstood at the height of the Cold War hysteria.
Given the state of inequality in the world today, where there is a greater percentage of poor people than ever before, do you still see some form of socialism on the agenda in Guyana?
Well, I would say that socialism has suffered a setback with the collapse of the world's socialist systems. However, there are experiments going on in different parts of the world - in Cuba and China, for example - and now in Russia a struggle is being waged between those who still want some form of socialism and those who want to pursue a capitalist course. So that struggle is going to continue. I would say that the contradictions are now sharpening between Marxism and the neoliberal model which is currently being dictated by the West. This is not the most important struggle that we have going on now. The most important struggle is to seek a new international balance of interests in this period of globalization and liberalization. Developing countries will continue to be marginalized if we do not collectively seek a new global order. Let me just say that socialism is not on the agenda in Guyana. We can speak of a period of national democracy.
What impact has the clash between the neoliberal model and socialism had on Guyana?
We have inherited IMF and World Bank programs that were implemented by the previous government. In this regard we are trying to move very carefully because we need balance-of-payment support of $40-45 million a year from the World Bank, IMF and the developed countries. So we see that there are many contradictions in the austerity model that is advocated by the World Bank and the IMF, contradictions that do not solve our problems.
At our Congress two years ago, we said that we had to walk carefully, skillfully and scientifically between conformity and transformation. Absolute compliance with the IMF and World Bank will lead to the death of many countries, as we have already seen. As a matter of fact, politicians who follow that model lose. When it comes time for the people to vote, they are thrown out.
In this careful walk between this "Washington Consensus" and a genuine Latin American agenda, with which you identify, how do you accommodate privatization and low wages to attract foreign investors? How do you feel about these things in Guyana?
Under recent governments, we experienced privatization along with the devaluation of our currency. A lot of those deals have proven to be a failure. We are examining everything very carefully and not accepting the IMF prescription as the one and only model. We are now talking about privatization of the electric company. And we have said that we don't want a model where foreign companies will hold a majority of the shares, and therefore control of the management and the board.
How would you characterize ethnic relations in Guyana and how do they relate to the political parties and the political process in general?
This issue has a long history in Guyana. Before we entered politics in the 1940s - long before Mr. Mandela came up with the formula of bringing the opposition in - we had made several attempts to bring about unity in our country. In 1957, we failed to create a political coalition between East Indians and Afro-Guyanese. In 1961, we won and I tried again. I went to the UN in support of Afro-Asian states to work out the formula, but then the foreign governments were working with [coupleader] Mr. Burnham to put him in power. As the opposition for 28 years, we again tried to bring about some unity but failed. In 1977, we came out with a slogan and a policy proposal called "winner will not take all," even if we win the election. We alone will not form the government. So, the policy is still to bring about unity along ethnic and religious lines in Guyana.
We have signed the optional protocol to the UN on several nonpolitical rights, which the previous government refused to sign. We signed it, and now anyone is entitled to go to the UN with any discrimination case he or she may have. We also have a task force for racial equality, headed by a very distinguished bishop of the Anglican church. He is a respected individual and his task force has produced a White Paper which will be presented to Parliament very shortly. And, might I say, the opposition party has refused to serve on the task force because they hate Bishop George because he has fought for fair and free elections in this country. When that White Paper is debated in the Parliament, we hope to pass a law on racial equality. We hope that cases can then be brought to the Commission, not to the UN or some other international body like the OAS.
People have always said the racial factor is the only political factor here. That is not true. If that were true, we would not have won a majority of the votes in Guyana over 50%. Indians are just over 50% of the population, and not all of them vote for us. In the 1992 elections, there were many irregularities. In spite of that, we won 54% of the votes. Given the peace in the country, I am sure we will break that gap again, as we did in 1953. In fact, when I was sworn in 1992, I said that we would make a new beginning, start where we had left off and bring about what we call "the spirit of 1953," which is about national unity, working class unity, and racial unity.
You have referred to Cold War hysteria in the United States and the developments that led to your ouster. How do you view the relationship between the United States and Guyana today?
Our relations are very good with the United States. We are working to achieve a partnership with the North and the South of the world, particularly with the United States, Latin America and the Caribbean. I have praised the United States; the past is the past. The Cold War was a historical process that was going on at that time, and we became the victims. I have no recriminations against the U.S. and Britain even though they helped to destabilize my government on two occasions.
Many have stated that the new method of U.S. intervention in Latin America and the Caribbean is the war on drugs, and many countries have approved the hot pursuit of narcotics traffickers on their territory. It has also been stated that if Guyana had been in opposition to that, there would be less of a threat to sovereignty. What's your reaction to that and the role that the United States is playing in the so-called "war on drugs?"
We haven't signed on completely, like some countries that have allowed American agencies to come onto their territory. We have only allowed them airline passage over our territory, but we must be kept constantly informed when these operations are happening. We have taken this position all along in the Caribbean Community (Caricom), and throughout the hemisphere, that we have to act together. When I came to the emergency meeting held by Caricom about the narcotics question, and the U.S. government's way of dealing with it, we took the line that we must not only deal with the symptoms - narcotics production and trafficking - but also with development.
In two important regions in Guyana, the northwest near Venezuela and the south near Brazil, people once produced quality peanuts. But they could not compete against imported peanuts coming into the country. Right now the banana producers in the Caribbean, especially in the Windward and Leeward Islands, cannot compete on the open market. They are getting a special price in Europe that is being contested by certain free-trade interests. A statement by the former Prime Minister of Dominica makes it clear that if the banana goes - and their income depends nearly 70% upon bananas - then the people will be forced to grow marijuana. In a letter to the World Bank president, I reiterated that statement. Not only will the people be forced to grow marijuana, but they will become refugees to the North. If they cannot get visas to go, they will go illegally. Therefore, we have to treat not only the symptom, but the root cause as well.
When I was in the government in the 1950s, there was no marijuana grown here. But under the last government 60% of the land which was under rice cultivation was abandoned, and the people started growing marijuana. And if we cannot sell our peanuts from these two regions then what are the people to do? Especially when there is a demand in the North for either marijuana, cocaine or heroin. That is why the people of Latin America are growing coca leaves and producing coca plants, which the big drug lords transform into cocaine and then send to the North. In order to overcome poverty, we have to get to the root problem of development. That's my message.
Copyright 1997 by the North American Congress on Latin America,
475 Riverside Drive, Suite 454, New York, NY, 10115 USA.
President Cheddi Jagan's New Year Greetings
January 1, 1996My fellow Guyanese
Today is the dawn of a bright new year. Wherever you are at this moment, my heart is with you in celebration. At this time I ask that as you make your New Year's resolution, let us focus our vision on one goal - a goal to try with all our hearts to restore a sense of pride in our nation - and let this, not hatred, be our legacy to our children.
A nation that is united its common endeavour will never be destroyed Let us join hands on this first day of new year at and pledge ourselves to try for new beginnings - to try with all our heart, our minds, our souls, to restore within ourselves that sense of dignity that graced the lives of our foreparents, who struggled in common unity to better their lives.
No matter how different their culture, they looked after each other s children, they celebrated happy occasions together, they came together to help each other to build a fence, to weed a yard to clean a canal - and they forged a Guyanese nation out of their common need to make themselves a people of pride and dignity. We need to restore that dignity so that our children can experience the pride.
We have experienced many difficulties in the past. We will experience many more in the future. But, we, as a nation working together can over come these difficulties.
You have to be the nation’s police You have to guard against those who have no pride in themselves nor in their country, who seek to destroy its wealth and its beauty. One act, which may seem simple to you, could save the nation much loss in revenue, and give the national economy a much-needed boost. But more important is that you have recognized yourself as part of this nation and be responsible enough to say: "This is wrong."
For example, there arc many of our outlying villages that are still waiting for funds to be realised for them to get potable water.
Yet in the city many yards have taps running night and day, pouring millions of dollars worth of alum and other purifying chemicals in the drains. This is criminal negligence and everyone who is guilty of water wastage must be told so in no uncertain terms, for they are robbing the wealth of the nation.
There arc employees who steal from state corporations consumers devise systems to rob the state revenues and there are even instances of sabotage of the nation's properties. For those who steal time from work that they are being paid to do, for those who lend themselves to systems that divert revenues from state coffers, for those in authority who take bribes to turn a blind eye to unlawful acts that harm the society, be warned that when you are caught the penalty will be severe - for your actions are counter-productive to the best interests of the nation as a whole and can be rightly termed unpatriotic. When you see people living in squalor, destitute children, children who are not in school, and those who are robbed of medical attention you must know that people like those who smuggle gold out of the country are to be blamed. We must name them and tell them that they are wrong. We must tell people who manipulate the market to increase the cost of living that we, the people, want to build this country and they will not be allowed to stand in the way. Under our new democracy you have a say and you must make your voices heard.
Brother and Sister Guyanese, I propose a toast. Let us forget past hatreds, let us reach out to build strong bonds of friendships, and let us pledge to link our hands across every chasm in our nation so that we can build a strong homeland so that future generations of Guyanese can say with pride – "I am a Guyanese."
Happy New Year to you all!!
© Nadira Jagan-Brancier 2000
DEEPAVALI MESSAGE
by His Excellency, Dr Cheddi Jagan, November 1, 1994.Deepavali - the beautiful Festival of Lights, like all other Guyanese Festivals, exhorts human kind to live in unity amidst diversity. Though Deepavali is basically a Hindu Festival its message is timely and its teachings universal.
In the world in which we live Science and Technology have ushered in new dimensions in man's live but with all these electronic and space age facilities and gadgets created to better man's life on earth, we find there exist greater poverty, hunger, sufferings and many ills the world over. Mankind is still grappling for world peace and inner peace. In fact in his quest to satisfy his insatiable desire for material possessions man has been robbed of certain values, values which need to be rekindled and re-emphasised.
Our Festivals are the harbingers of a renaissance of the human mind and spirit. They come in our midst as timely reminders to all Guyanese for personal analysis, for fellowship, for enhancement of family life, for respect and tolerance, for sharing and caring, for moral direction and spiritual upliftment.
May the flickering flames of the diyas serve as a reminder to all Guyanese of the richness of the various cultural and religious streams of our people and may the timely message of deepavali serve to fertilize the thinking of all Guyanese to strive for the advancement of our country thus enabling them to live happier and fuller life.
Joyous Deepavali Greetings!
© Nadira Jagan-Brancier 2000
Message on 4th Anniversary of Guyana's Victory -
Oct 5th, 1996by President Cheddi Jagan
Fellow Guyanese, Friends of Guyana!
On this morning of the 4th Anniversary of Guyana's victory in its long, hard struggle for democracy, I want to share some thoughts with you.
Many, many years ago, when I was just a boy, I saw so many atrocities committed against our parents by the colonials that made my soul sick. I thought then what a sweet thing freedom from this and any type of oppression would be.
I dedicated my life to pursue freedom for all Guyana's oppressed and denigrated people.
The fight was long and hard and is now part of our history. But, make no mistake, it is interwoven very much into our present and our future.
Friends became ambitious and turned out to be enemies who sold out the rights of this nation for their own aggrandizement.
Friends are still becoming enemies in pursuit of the same goals. Ideology is still a ball being played in a game where every new player hits below the belt in efforts to win the soul of Guyana.
It may be true chronologically, I may be justly called an old man - but I am an old man whose visions are as fresh as the day when I first conceived the idea that we, the descendants of slaves and semi-slaves, could become a free people - a people free to pursue our dreams and to grow both in the individual as well as the national sense - and I promise you here today that I will spend whatever years, I mean them to be long years that remain to me in trying to create a situation where the dreams of every Guyanese can be converted to reality - once they pursue those dreams without trampling on the rights and dignity of others.
October 5th marks the true anniversary of the advent of democracy in Guyana.
February 23rd and May 26 gave us independence from the colonials and the right to rule ourselves - but, in truth, the Guyanese people have only experienced real freedom in Guyana since October 5th, 1992.
Granted, we have not attained a Utopia - and we are still battling on terms dictated by others in our struggle to restore prosperity to this dear land of ours.
I hold no grudge against the colonials. Without them there would not have been this rich blend of people that moulds the Guyanese nation into such a colourful tapestry that exists nowhere else in the world.
What will always anger me is the treachery of our own people who laid waste to our potential for prosperity and financial integrity.
The Guyanese people lost sight of their goals and their high ideals. Family and community life began to crumble. Our youths lost their sense of direction.
Our once beautiful and prosperous country, our once hospitable and caring people, began to crumble.
Standards in environmental care, indecent human behaviour, in pride in our communities, standards in everything began to drop at the rate of the water gushing over Kaieteur Falls.
Criminals took over our country. No rules or laws were observed. Our people were divided onto themselves - looking at each other with suspicion and even hatred.
Today, slowly but surely, Guyanese are regaining their pride in themselves and in their country. They are beginning to dream once more. They have even began to regain their fighting spirit in pursuit of those dreams.
I would be a fool if I tell you today that we have achieved perfection in this country since my government took office.
Criminals are still giving our country a bad name. Some unpatriotic people are still bent on oppressing the poor. We still have quite a way before our infrastructural works can be completed. Salaries and working conditions, though much improved, are still not what we would like them to be. But we are getting there.
We are seeing the return of the community spirit where everyone comes together to lay pipelines, to clean canals, to help build roads, to help each other in so many different ways.
And I have seen it - overwhelmingly displayed - when floods ravaged parts of this land and the heart of Guyana bared itself for the world to see that it is a clean and healthy and vibrant force that no destructive element can cajole, or coerce, or bribe into hatred anymore.
The love of Guyanese for Guyanese was abundantly poured forth from rich and poor alike and I was moved beyond words to see the caring and sharing become part of the national soul and not part of a politician's rhetoric.
Humanity can only survive if we all recognise our inter-dependence on each other.
At all levels - individually, in the family structure within the community, nationally, regionally, internationally, we all need to understand that there is a crying need for systems where we support one another in the areas where the others fall short.
Indeed, this is the basis of my struggle for a New Global Human Order - where human beings and nations can pool resources to help each other build and grow rather than subjugate and destroy.
Look around you, think for yourselves with clear eyes and minds. Guyana is taking shape into what we ultimately want it to become.
We are still overwhelmingly short of human and financial resources, and lifestyles are a far way from our ideal - but we are getting there - and we are doing it together.
When I visit our different communities, people show me proudly what they have done to improve their communities.
Guyanese are no longer a lethargic, disoriented people. October 5th gave them hope - it was truly the dawn of a new era.
Enjoy this day. Share the happiness with everyone. We are on the freedom road walking towards prosperity. No one can divert us from this path but our own selves because today we have truly become "masters of our fate and captains of our soul."
© Nadira Jagan-Brancier 2000
